Hi All.
Very well put Martin, now we need to focus on a system to accomplish this end.
Alan
Very well put Martin, now we need to focus on a system to accomplish this end.
Alan
LAP COUNTING (or maybe not so much counting )
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 alan whitaker |
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Posts: 221 (10/17/09 00:48:39) |
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alan whitaker |
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Posts: 222 (10/17/09 02:13:18) |
Hi All.
Is there a devise for measuring the output from a transponder like on a scale of 1 to 100, we all assume because the light comes on it is working, some of
mine are 10 years old, if they are like most electrical devices they must loose efficiency with age ?.
Alan
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Bart Drieghe |
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Posts: 380 (10/17/09 02:35:39) |
What we seem to forget is that , the AMB system is only helping us , its not a miracle system .
In the earlier days , without the amb system , we had to have two(well atleast two) people to count the laps and on the end of the race , several people for the seconds . Quite often the ladies were the chosen ones . I've done it too sometimes and all i can remember of it was that it was a tough job and certainly not enjoyable . ( i remember also that , after a race , we had to start counting the laps on the list and double checking it to be sure, very enjoyable huh ) Then came the amb system .... IT can be a very reliable system but like Martin is saying , its not bulletproof . Why not , simply , several similar AMB systems but hardly everybody uses the same system , different boats with different mounted transponders and also different ways of mounting the antenna . And , we may not forget that the transponders are not the same too , brandnew transponders mounted on the same boat/place can vary a lot in sending their signal . The thing is Martin , those behind the computer are having a responsability , once you start up the computer , you have to be focused on the race and the passing of the boats . Too many times i see people think that that is an easy job , i can tell you , it's not , by far not . Its a tough job and underestimated by several boaters . In our last ( belgian ) race , i got a bit distracted and missed a few laps on a boat , luckily we could check it and correct it but i felt bad that i hadn't been focused on the race . The results got improved in the second heat so no harm was done . But still , something like that won't happen again , thats what i promised myself . Another thing , the most difficult thing is ( like already been stated ) , a transponder that works and sometimes not . Why ? Who can tell , bad position of the transponder ? Or is the wire of the antenna too high ? Low voltage on the receiver battery ? ( although i think the amb system works well up to 4 volts ) Or is there maybe a bad connection on the amb antenna wire ? Too many variables and thats why the person behind the computer has to be focused and count the missed laps manually . Like i said in the beginning , the amb system is there to help us , nothing more , nothing less . Its not a miracle system . The job of the computerperson is not only starting up the computer , it takes as long as the heat/final is . I do agree with the fact that you've always got the same people working and the same that won't work ( or do anything ) . Its a pity , we're all doing the same hobby so why not help each others ........ B
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GBND6 |
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Posts: 18 (10/17/09 03:01:32) |
I agree with you Bart, but at some stage there has to be a point where the boater has to accept responsibility for his equipment not working correctly, all the
time.
Martin Co- Founder LMRacing www.lmracing.co.uk
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Bart Drieghe |
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Posts: 381 (10/17/09 03:46:04) |
I kinda disagree on that Martin ,
That boat that i had a few missed laps on , had been working perfectly in the previous 3(belgian) races , no glitches or something else . I do agree with in this situation , First heat , weak signal , sometimes counting , sometimes not , you warn the boater (after the race of course )and let him know this all , if possible look up a better position for his transponder / give him advise . If he keeps on racing with his boat in the same situation /place , then i'm saying that he's not willing to improve it . Then you could say its "his" fault But but but But all in all , if his boat has been working alright on previous races , then it becomes difficult isn't it ? In my case , i knew that the problem wasn't on his boat but on the antenna being a tad higher because of the higher waves so there was no need for changing the transponder or so . Nope , I had to count his laps manually and correct it . Again , i know what you're trying to say , new boat , new transponder ( or old one , doesn't really matter ) , you come to a race , first heat , bad/weak signal , people advise you to change , you don't change it , next race , same thing , etc etc . Then its without no doubt the racer's fault . He's ignorent to the advise to change his transponder/place of it so poor him . But it becomes difficult to say that it is his (or her ) fault if the same boat /transponder combination has worked on previous races . I'm thinking it like this , i want to be counted everywhere else like i will count you on the international race in Oudenaarde ( or for the Belgians , on the belgian races ) I want to give everyone a fair chance , wether you've driven 10 miles or 1000 , makes no difference to me . I cannot say something like this : Wops , number 5 didn't count again , ah poor fella . Number 5 could be Fredde , could be you , could be Christopher , could be Erich and it could be a Belgian racer . Makes no difference to me , stay focused , put the missed laps on a sheet of paper and correct the result . I just think that we rely too much on the amb system and thats something we have to step away from , its a computer , it will help us but its not bulletproof . There has to be someone behind the computer and check the computer with what happens during the race .Atleast , thats something i think . Btw , congratulations with your qualification ( and that counts for everyone who qualified for the WC !) @ Alan , yes there is something that can count or show the output but i have no idea where you can find it or so . Btw , this is just my opinion guys , don't wanna sound like preaching the Bible or so , B
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LubomirSz |
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Posts: 20 (10/17/09 08:26:13) |
Hi all,
I try to explain couple of technical aspects of AMBrc counting system. It might be boring to read it all, but for someone it may help to understand problems we are discussing here.
In fact the AMBrc decoder is a receiver, which receives signal from the transponder through detection loop (antenna). For correct counting all parts must be harmonized - transponder in the boat, detection loop and obviously the decoder.
Transponder is a small transmitter sending its unique number (as it was already mentioned, wire from the transponder is not its antenna; it is for power supply only). The strength of its signal depends on the voltage, but not significantly. I personally use only 4 cells battery pack in my 3.5 for receiver, servos and transponder and my boat is counted perfectly. But really significant is the position and mounting of the transponder. Mount it as high as possible, avoiding to use metal or carbon mounting parts (do not mount it on aluminium plate). Be careful to mount it under the tube, cover holders and anything metal (or carbon), which can cause electronic shadow for signal from transponder to the antenna.
Decoder as a standard receiver receives signal from any transponder and decodes its number. Signal strength and number of hits are numbers, which decoder provides to monitor the quality of transponder signal.
Signal strength is the level of transponder signal (e.g. in scale 40 - 250) caught by the antenna (can be improved using the amplifier). Transponder signal must have some level to be recognized by the decoder. In my scale no signal below 40 is counted - it is recognized as a noise. Signal strength (except of transponder and its mounting) depends on the length and quality of the detection loop (I can just recommend use original AMBrc parts), its distance above the water (as low as possible, usually 40-50 cm), sensitivity of decoder, and many other less significant factors. My experience says that the new decoder (with display) has better sensitivity than the old one.
During the race the boat jumps on the waves and the distance between transponder and antenna differs - this is the main cause, why transponders with poor signal level are sometimes counted, sometimes not.
Number of hits indicates, how many times was the decoder recognized under the detection loop (e.g. 2..50). Number of hits depends on the quality of transponder signal and boat speed. Usage of amplifier doesn't affect this information. There is a mistake to mount detection loop very high and use amplifier - amplifier helps with signal strength, but it also amplifies the noise.
To be sure with AMBrc counting: - use 5 cells battery pack (dedicated pack for transponder is better) - mount your transponder to achieve signal strength more than 100, number of hits more than 15, detected by a new decoder without amplifier, detection loop 20 m long, 40 cm wide and 40 cm above the water.
For WC participants - as I have already mentioned, we are going to use two totally different and independent
systems (2 detection loops, different software) with staff of two persons behind each computer. Each passing is in my software recorded with detailed
information. I can add signal strength and number of hits to heat results to inform competitors about signal quality. There is also possible to print the full
protocol in case of significant problems.
A bit long, I couldn't cut it more.
Lubomir
Last Edited By: LubomirSz
10/17/09 08:33:23.
Edited 2 times.
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Robert Daniel |
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Posts: 211 (10/17/09 13:29:01) |
Thanks to all contirbutors, this is an excellent discussion.
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grahame morgan |
Transponders | ||
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Posts: 34 (10/18/09 00:47:44) |
We all know how critical the transponder positioning can be. All, carbon boats seem to be more affected than glass ones. This appears to be a result of the
carbon absorbing some of the signal thus reducing it's strength.
Perhaps there is a case to get the main boat suppliers to change the way the layup is done. I have, since the introduction of the transponder system changed from all carbon layup to now incorporating glass in the radio box area of the deck. With this set I do not seem to suffer weak signals (I think, as no one has said as much). Perhaps those with good signals could share with the rest of us what their set up is. The more knowledge we gain perhaps this problem could get sorted. Grahame |
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grahame morgan |
Transponders | ||
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Posts: 35 (10/18/09 00:49:46) |
Oh, forgot to say.
Alan, yes there is such a device for checking signal strength. I cannot remember who does it but you could try Keith, he has one. Grahame |
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alan whitaker |
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Posts: 223 (10/18/09 01:18:25) |
Hi All.
I had a bit of free time yesterday so had a look at a couple of servos and a transponder, I used a Futaba 9156, Multiplex Rhine 1/4 scale and a AA 2700 ma 6
volt pack fully charged. both servos showed a voltage drop when turning hard left (bottom left buoy) the drop was 10% on the 9156 and 14% on the Rhino add to
this a throttle servo on the turn and you have a large voltage drop just as you go under the transponder wire, I would say it could be more on a old battery
or a bind on a linkage.
I have been using a separate battery just for the transponder so as to make sure there is a full 6 volts to it all the time, I know many of our boats have 5
servos some are high power and torque so pull a large current from the battery when operated, just thought but 2 batteries are better than 1.
It is just an observation but it could make a difference to the signal. Maybe we can try using 2 batteries to see if it works.
Alan
Ps thanks Grahame |
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SOLLING |
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Posts: 23 (10/18/09 02:37:07) |
I have been told that if the transponder is mounted on the radio hatch which is made out of lexon and possibly 4mm thick it wont be as good a signal as one
mounted inside the boat up close to the deck which could be only1.5-2.00mm thick but this area must be cloth not carbon or carbon/kevlar.
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alan whitaker |
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Posts: 224 (10/18/09 04:30:24) |
Hi All.
I think the hand held units only work within a few inches of the transponder, It would also be somewhat like a MOT only good at the time of testing and not
an indication it will count every race lap.
You would need to have 2 persons to manually count any boats the system misses.
Not sure about the Lexon thingy.
Alan
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Dave Marles |
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Posts: 930 (10/20/09 13:57:27) |
The transponder checker that I and Keith Burgess has will only measure the transaponder output with the transponder actually placed next to it which does not
address the main problem. The masin problem is not the transponder output, but as has been mentioned its the transponder position and what it is mounted on
that determines the signal transmitted from the boat.
Dave
Tuning software |
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No308 |
Lap counting transponder | ||
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Posts: 1 (10/22/09 01:14:56) |
Hi Robert You are perfectly right about which angle the transponder is set in the boat as the signal that it transmits is large oval shaped ice cream
cone and mounting it in a different direction could lead to a weak signal. The best description of the signal coming out of your boat is a spinning plate
on a flat table and you are looking at it from an angle of 70 degrees from the vertical. Rgds Richard Harris
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Fredde Cederberg |
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Posts: 402 (10/22/09 10:27:10) |
I agree with you Bart, but at some stage there has to be a point where the boater has to accept responsibility for his equipment not working correctly, all the time.Well if you are talking about the transponder here I do not agree 100%, if we install the transonder by the book and it still work poor, shall I by punished by th lap counting and not get my laps!! Thas a lot of crap, in car racing the rules says that laps shoud be counted manually if the transponder doesn't work for some reason and in car racing it is much harder to do it then in boats so as long as we don't have a 100% bullit proof lap counting system it has to be checked all the time that it is counting correct and if not it must be counted manually. Imaging this scenario: You are in the lead of the final in the WC and for some reason your transponder starts to fail, you finish the race on the same lap as the second and third place and you are the winner, the World Champion, but when you see the results with your bad transponder that you are not even in the top 3, how would that feel, would you still be racing after a robbery like that, spending lot of $$$ to travel on races and buying boats, radio etc. Or how would it feel to win a racelike that when knowing that you really didn't win on your own, you won because of a bad lap counting rule. My 2 cents
Last Edited By: Fredde Cederberg
10/22/09 10:40:36.
Edited 1 times.
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ANDREW AYKROYD |
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Posts: 32 (10/22/09 11:17:45) |
What gets me is that you can race all year at different venues with the transponder where it has always been in your boat and you never have a problem, you
goto a major race and start getting problems!! surely the problem lies with the transponder system and not with you??? especially if more than one person has
problems with weak signals.
I agree with fredde with regards to not only you knowing you have won but others knowing aswell, and then being told you havent even got in the top 5 cause of a system failure, i would be seriously gutted. |
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Bart Drieghe |
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Posts: 382 (10/22/09 11:58:17) |
I couldn't agree more Fredde , thats the whole point i'm discussing about .
I think lots of people start from the idea that the amb system works bullet proof but its not so you have to start from the idea , the computer is here to help us , incase there is a transponder not working , count it by hand /manually . IF i would be the person in your situation , i'd be stopping . And if something like that would happen on a international race , i'd be seriously pissed off . Thats why i'm also so annoyed by the fact that on several races , people start up the computer but do not count the missed laps . Why they don't count them is a big and i mean , BIG question to me . Again , i agree that at a certain stage , you have to be responsible about your boat and position of your transponder . But , if that same boat/transponder combination has worked in many races ........................ Btw , both my transponders are mounted below a ( i think) polycarbonate plate of 4-5 mm thick . On my costa , its mounted on the side , on my 35 , its mounted on my radio cover . Sofar i had no complaints about weak signal or so . I do use a 5 cell /6volt battery , eneloop with 2000mah . But this discussion doesn't go about a bad position of your transponder , this discussion goes about the fact that on certain races people won't count the missed laps manually . B
Last Edited By: Bart Drieghe
10/22/09 12:01:38.
Edited 1 times.
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SOLLING |
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Posts: 25 (10/23/09 05:02:51) |
OK as I have said before, how are we supposed to test the boat transponder?? last race I had a good signal, next race who knows ??
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w3bby |
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Posts: 33 (10/23/09 06:17:54) |
Bart Drieghe wrote: Pure laziness on the part of the organizer or, as stated earlier, ignorance of how to count manually on the computer system. If you invite people to a race then you must be prepared to give them a good racing experience and primarily an accurate and timely race result. Count-backs can work, looking for laps that are multiples of a competitors lap times but this need not be accurate as it is hard to remember if they came in to fix something during the race, had a bad lap or encountered the rescue boat on the course. On the setup side we try to place the antenna no more than 40cm above the water surface. If it has rained or if there is a heavy dew then drying the antenna has appeared to help.
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Ian |
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alan whitaker |
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Posts: 226 (10/25/09 05:03:29) |
Hi All
As pointed out by Dave,
I think the issue that Bart is pointing out is that in Germany the laps are not being counted manually for boats with no signal or intermittent
signal.
If there are rules which state a procedure for counting boats where the transponder has missed boats out then all fine, if not it is up to the drivers to
ensure there appropriate rules in place for this, most people can read a number as it passes past race control and write it down, don't forget we did
this for years before the transponder came into use. I agree with Steve that you don't know if your transponder will be counted at the next race, so a
manual or electronic counter must be available / used for this.
There must also be the people who are willing to give there time to do a manual back up.
Hi W3BBY
I am not sure I agree with all of your last post.
Bottom line
If you know there is an issue with the transponder or some of the boats you must have a simple means to count the boats manually.
Alan
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