LAP COUNTING (or maybe not so much counting )

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Bart Drieghe	LAP COUNTING (or maybe not so much counting )	Lead	[-]
Posts: 375 (09/10/09 08:57:16) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None In the latest (German) races , i've noticed and heared that several people weren't lapcounted because : a) they forgot to plug in their amb transponder b) had the wrong number /changed boat . Why they weren't counted by hand ( when the amb transponder didn't work) or counted as a wrong amb transponder , i do not know . The only thing i know is that they had to stop or raced for nothing . First question , why weren't they counted by hand ? Why weren't they counted as a wrong amb transponder ? Can't the programme count it as a number 17 or so ? Do you think its fair ? When i did the lapcounting with Jolien ( my love) on the International of Oudenaarde , we counted everyone . This way i had a German racing with the wrong amb transponder , an Englishman with no transponder( forgot to plug it in) , a Dutch with a false number and i had several others on a similar way . All these times it was a "pilot's error" . However , one time we had a wrong number but this came due to a misreading of the organisation . Was this some kind of "extra service " we did ? Do you think its fair nto to count when your amb transponder doesn't work ? Whats your idea about it ? I can tell that the programme made by Marc Decroubele counts unknown transponders as number 17-18-19 , this way we can follow those with a wrong amb transponder . The ones with NO transponder signal at all are counted on the computer by hand . Regards , B
LubomirSz		#1	[-]
Posts: 17 (09/10/09 23:57:54) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Hi, we counted all passings in EC Oroshaza 2009 (a lot manually), but I have to add, that competitor MUST BE responsible for correct position and operation of his transponder in a boat. Just try to imagine, everyone takes care of his engine, what happens if engine doesn't operate? Or if you want another example - radio control must work for correct racing as well otherwise competitor is out. Problems I have noticed in Oroshaza: - two active transponders in a boat !!! - no transponder in a boat (or switched off) - different transponder in a boat (none of two registered) - wrong posision in radio box (as deep as possible in a corner, under the pipe, under mounting devices - very poor signal) - sensitivity on electric power (problems at the end of the heat) The worst situation for lap counters is, when the transponder singnal is on the edge of sensitivity, sometimes counting, sometimes not (usually caused by wrong position of transponder in a boat or low voltage, carbon hull decreases signal level as well). This can cause missed laps and everyone knows, what does it meen in a tight competition. I had number of competitors, where only single passing were missed in a heat, but vice-versa competitors, where only 2-3 passings were counted by transponder. My system measures and records the quality of signal for every passing, in Oroshaza we informed aggrieved competitors about transponder problems (sometimes with the protocol), all made corrections for next heat. WC 2010 will be counted with the same (completely doubled) AMBrc system as it was this year (slightly improved), but I would really appreciate competitors to take more care about their transponders. We plan to check transponders before heat starts (identical to radio check). Lubomir
PavelV		#2	[-]
Posts: 14 (09/11/09 12:26:09) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I had more problems with AMB transponders when: - I used only 4 cells - low power - I mounted AMB transponder on aluminium desk When now I use 5 cells and AMB transponder is mounted bottom of the cover RC box outside pipe - no problems
henvis		#3	[-]
Posts: 66 (09/12/09 09:53:39) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	It is a pity that the federation has no opinion for placement transponders and voltage for it (4.8 or 6V?). Whether it is obligatory for WC and EC the additional manual account of circles? If there are no rules, all disputes are useless... But all known, what price has each lap! When there is a dispute, always it is necessary to find who has broken rules? When they are not present - all are right! Last Edited By: henvis 09/12/09 10:00:10. Edited 1 times.
Robert Daniel		#4	[-]
Posts: 203 (09/12/09 11:53:16) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	To ensure a good signal the transponder needs to be placed so that the wires exit either left or right in the radio box. If the wires are pointing to the transom or front of the boat you get a very weak signal.
grahame morgan	Transponder	#5	[-]
Posts: 32 (09/13/09 00:36:10) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Robert, This information you have is not quite right. According to all the AMB data the signal that comes out from the unit is like an 'ice creame cone' shape form the flat faces. As long as the transponder is flat, i.e. the fixing screw holes are flat in the boat it matters not where the wires exit. Grahame
Dave Marles		#6	[-]
Posts: 927 (09/13/09 05:32:40) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I think the issue that Bart is pointing out is that in Germany the laps are not being counted manually for boats with no signal or intermittent signal. Dave Tuning software
Robert Daniel		#7	[-]
Posts: 204 (09/13/09 11:47:10) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	grahame morgan wrote: Robert, This information you have is not quite right. According to all the AMB data the signal that comes out from the unit is like an 'ice creame cone' shape form the flat faces. As long as the transponder is flat, i.e. the fixing screw holes are flat in the boat it matters not where the wires exit. Grahame Hi Grahame Just going by my personal experience, at our first regatta of the year I ran my newly built Ikarus. Mick S advised me that I was not recording any laps, I always had a strong signal from the same transponder when placed in my previous Ikarus. After the regatta Mick S suggested that if the wires were pointing either to the front or back this would give a weak signal. Mine were pointing forwards, I rotated the transponder 90 deg and have had no problem at any subsquent regattas. I acknowledge what AMB say but personally in future I'll always make sure ny transponders have the wires coming out sideways.
henvis		#8	[-]
Posts: 67 (09/13/09 23:18:57) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Connecting wires are not the transponders aerial . The aerial is located inside and radiates perpendicularly to body of transponders. Any metal or carbon details can block the transponders signal! The сonnecting wire can somewhat is the additional aerial?
Robert Daniel		#9	[-]
Posts: 205 (09/14/09 10:00:00) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I was only mentioning the connecting wires as a means of describing the positioning of the transponder, I never said the wires themselves had any effect on the signal.
gbeg1		#10	[-]
Posts: 110 (09/14/09 10:53:28) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	As Dave has already tried pointing out, the thread was discussing the procedures, or lack of, in place when these problems occur. Regards, Leon www.lmracing.co.uk
Robert Daniel		#11	[-]
Posts: 206 (09/14/09 13:52:50) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	gbeg1 wrote: As Dave has already tried pointing out, the thread was discussing the procedures, or lack of, in place when these problems occur. That's true gbeg1 It can be done, in Stuttgart I mentioned to Armin Hauck that I wasn't sure if my transponder in the 3.5 was ok, he said he would look out for it and count manually if I had no signal. As it happened following its 90 deg rotation after the previous non scoring regatta it worked ok. What is really needed is an effective way of checking they are working and what number they are before the race begins, like a frequency checker but for transponders.
andyn		#12	[-]
Posts: 2 (09/15/09 05:20:38) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	How about a couple of runs under the wires before the races begin?
Robert Daniel		#13	[-]
Posts: 207 (09/15/09 11:50:10) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	andyn wrote: How about a couple of runs under the wires before the races begin? Not practical, at big International regattas there can be hundreds of entries, the racing often runs non-stop from early morning to early evening. There just isn't the time for everyone to have a run round before a race begins and then sort out any problems. A timetable would just go to pieces. A transponder checker, if such a thing exists, needs to be available. If you are not certain about your transponder signal, you could have it checked at any time before your race is due. If you fail to do that then have a problem and don't get scored, tough.
LubomirSz		#14	[-]
Posts: 18 (09/15/09 13:07:13) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	It is more practical to use a "mobile" detection loop, connected to the decoder (suppored with software of course). I have tested it with my friend in one competition and it works fine.
Bart Drieghe		#15	[-]
Posts: 376 (09/15/09 13:10:11) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Hi All , Doing a test run is quite impossible . Its a LOT of work and time is most of the time a big issue for international races . Besides , thats not quite the point i'm trying to clear out . Lets say , there exists a device that checks the transponder ( would be really nice to have something like that as it would solve many issues with the transponders ) but you check the boat , transponder works . And then ? Start the boat and it doesn't work anymore or very weak signal . No counting or what ? The thing i'm trying to point out is , why doesn't the organizer count those boats ? I personally find it a bit weak to say , oh yea , you probably had a full run but hey ho , i didn't get a transponder signal so i didn't count you . HUH ? Just like Lubomir, i came accross the same things during the international in Oudenaarde and i have the upmost respect for those behind the computer as it can be a pain sometimes . But still , we counted and did our best to give everyone a fair counting , wether or not their transponder worked or not . It was on occasion a tough job and sometimes demands two persons to be there . I just find it a pity that someone can travel a long way and not getting qualified because he didn't get counted . I haven't had an issue sofar with my transponders , i've placed them "solid" in my boats and every boat has its own transponder , never do i have to switch them so ..... But , like Robert pointed out , a transponder checker would be great . Don't know if it exists though ? B
w3bby		#16	[-]
Posts: 32 (09/15/09 22:47:00) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	In Sweden we use a caller to aid the guy on the computer, they call the number of the boats crossing the line so the computer guy doesn't have to watch boats going through and then look at the screen to check. This makes it easier to count by hand if necessary and also allows for allocating "unknown" transponders to competitors as the race progresses. We place reserve boats with transponder numbers in the system (bbK) so this makes reallocation easier. It is still possible for some misses due to boats going through at strange angles (and therefore not counting) so before results are published we check lap times for suspicious laps and if necessary, in conjunction with the referee, adjust counts. We have used a German antenna amplifier and one from Jaartsveld and both have shown reduced errors due to weak signals. Some of the lack of hand counting can be the lack of knowledge of the person on the computer. At a recent race the guy did not know how to hand count or allocate unknowns, so that is just a case of a little education from those in the know. _____________ Ian Last Edited By: w3bby 09/15/09 22:49:18. Edited 1 times.
Fredde Cederberg		#17	[-]
Posts: 400 (09/16/09 13:23:49) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	In Hannover this was a problem for Dieter who raced the final with the spare boat with different transponder number, seems like the germans trust the AMB software so much so they didn't even look on the computer during the heats, I don't care what they do on their championship races but when it is international with people travelling long way it has to be better then that. The laps has to be counted by hand if the transponder fails, no matter what the reason are.
Bart Drieghe		#18	[-]
Posts: 377 (09/16/09 14:41:29) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Hi Fredde , I think alike , they seem to rely soo much on the computer that they don't "check" or follow the race . A pity in my eyes . Although this topic isn't going about Dieter , he indeed had an issue with it and had to stop racing in Hannover . But i know people who had "problems" too in Duisburg . The knife cuts on both sides though , Dieter should have informed the organisation in Hannover that he had changed boat AND transponder . But they could have counted him and edited name/result or whatever in my eyes .. B Last Edited By: Bart Drieghe 09/16/09 14:43:44. Edited 1 times.
Robert Daniel		#19	[-]
Posts: 210 (10/16/09 08:09:00) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I have been asked by Hugo Woldt if I would post his thoughts on this subject. I don't really know why he cannot access the board himself. Robert. Hi to all counters and drivers of FSR. I observe the discussion about the counting of transponder with a lot of interest. A friend of mine, my wife and I are counting now since about 10 years. First with a PC and by hand, then with Armin's system and then since about some years ago Lubo's software and AMBrc-Decoder (Version 2.x and 3.x). I think I don't have to name all the problems they are discussed in forums. w3bby hit the mark in his article. "Some of the lack of hand counting can be the lack of knowledge of the person on the computer. At a recent race the guy did not know how to hand count or allocate unknowns, so that is just a case of a little education from those in the know." In Germany the misery these days is not the question of techniques but the personal attitude to the counting and the respect to the contestant. Concerning to this there exists a statement of the counting person. "When the system runs, I don't care if a transponder operates or not…." I run several tests with Lubomirs software and the AMBrc-Decoder V2x., the last one in Kuty this year. In all tests the transponder has been identified, irrespective of the material from the aerial, the diameter of the wires, the distance between the aerials (30-60 cm) or the humidity. For the host it is certainly possible to run a second computer. With Lubo we just tried it. A loop back with defined distance to the boat could be very helpful for the registration and later, for all drivers by the removal of all problems with the transponder. Lubos software allows reading out the hits.
GBND6		#20	[-]
Posts: 17 (10/16/09 23:42:13) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Hi Everyone, From reading all of the opinions on the discussion I wanted to voice my thoughts. As rightly stated by Dave and Leon rather than focus on the technical issues of the workings of the AMB system, we needs to try to come up with a workable solution to the problem. Since the introduction of the system, there has always been issues that have occurred when at race meetings. However as the systems have been developed these glitches have been reduced or erased, and the recording of laps more reliable. For many boaters that are not involved in the running of the race events, they have a belief that every time a boat goes under the wires a lap is recorded. And as we all know, the system is not 100% reliable and this is not the case. As already mentioned, checking the transponder signal prior to a race might help. Having a manual back up to the AMB system might help, and making sure those that use the system know how to record the boats manually might help, ensuring the competitor takes responsibility for it not working might help. However it will be the discussion of these ideas and how to implement them that we need to remain focused on. Looking back and criticising why things were not in place/done, is always easier than putting back up plans in place before. The reason why we all like the transponder system is because of the detail that it can give competitors on lap times, positions fastest laps; but we have become reliant on it and it has become harder for clubs to find people to help on race days. As such any solution needs to take into account the fact that those that do put on and run events are already working very hard, and unless those people that do not help ( and we all know that some people don't), we are only going to put more stress on those that do. We all love model boat racing, if we didn't we wouldn't have the websites and forums that we do. We just need to remember that it is just a hobby and there is no point in focusing on the negatives. There are not a lot of boaters left and the only way we are going to sustain/grow in numbers is to make it more enjoyable. Regards, Martin Co- Founder LMRacing www.lmracing.co.uk

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