26cc Naviga Class

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alan whitaker		#21	[-]
Posts: 191 (09/14/08 01:05:54) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Hi Graham. Comments regarding dinosaurs came from you I only used your expression in my post, do you really think people will build a more expensive 26 cc boat when there is not enough races, it is a lot of money £ 1000 + to build a boat for 2 races in the UK and 3 in Europe (if you go to all three) then the W/Cs every 2 years that's if you go to all the races and clubs will put then on. So graham are you going to build a 26 cc boat, you have a lot to say on the subject, lets see if your actions match your words and build a 26 cc boat. Alan
michael a lawson	26cc naviga class	#22	[-]
Posts: 2 (09/14/08 01:13:07) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I think more people would race this class, because the cost of a 35cc engine alone, costs more than zen26cc engine boat and hardware, not everyone has lots of money to waste.
alan whitaker		#23	[-]
Posts: 192 (09/14/08 01:21:58) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Hi Michael. Given a £1000 would you build a 26 or a 15, 2/4 races with the 26 or 12 with the 15. Lets hear from Stuttgart and Belgium if they are including a 26 cc class for next year, if they are I will build and run one. Alan
Dave Marles		#24	[-]
Posts: 850 (09/14/08 06:21:02) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Alan, This is a proposal for discussion about allowing a new class for 26cc in FSRV FSRO FSRH. Asking if Stuttgart or Belgium are willing to run a race next year is irrelevant. FSRO was proposed in this way and was tested at a World Champs and after a shaky start at the first 2 World Champs it is now a valid race format. If it had not become popular, then the idea would have been scrapped. The same could apply to this additional class. There are many 26cc motors on the market capable of racing at a good level without the expense and size of the 35cc boats and I believe this class could be a very good way to introduce new people and maybe new countries into our hobby and provide a racing class that would fit safely into the lakes that we now use. Dave Tuning software Last Edited By: Dave Marles 09/14/08 12:26:40. Edited 1 times.
lambymc6	26cc Naviga Class	#25	[-]
Posts: 3 (09/14/08 08:52:38) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Scrap the 35cc and just go to the 26cc small light boats better racing
gbeg1		#26	[-]
Posts: 71 (09/14/08 10:07:10) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	alan whitaker wrote: Hi That's ok we all have a right to free speech and opinions, Why do people like to run it anyway I guess for the same reason you run a 15 boat, and you are right it was a unconstructive comment, some like 3,5 and some like petrol, it is the way it is Alan Alan, as i'm sure you are aware it was an attempt at trying to keep this discussion friendly and reminding people that it's all about fun and banter at the end off the day. If these characteristics were not present in the sport i know myself and many others would not be there. I thought that by your past posts that you were of an intelligence to of understood that instead of posting a reply to an obvious rhetorical question (lack of question mark). I apologise if this was not the case and shall be more obvious in future. On the subject i think inviting a 26cc class at Naviga level, dependant on entries, is a great idea. Alan, you keep asking the question of how many 26cc boats there are racing at the moment but as many people have said in response of your questions, there is those who do not race, for there own reasons, but would race if there was a 26cc class. On this forum alone, which is a tiny percentage of our fellow Naviga racers, there has been a couple of people saying they would race if there was this class. I am not sure of your reasons of being so against a new class, but when Bobo stated this: "Number of 26cc boater is growing in all classes 35cc is big and expensive. Not an affordable class for many boaters. 26cc is easier and there are so many after market parts available all over the world Setting up the 26cc class probably will attract more people to join model boating. To get rid of the trouble to hold a WC for only a few 26cc, we may set the minimum entry at the beginning. 26cc is joint with 35cc when there is no enough entry. The aim is to attract new comer who think nitro is too difficult and 35cc is too expensive. " I am pretty sure he is talking about all people who buy/have boats including the ones who don't come racing internationally. I know for a fact that in our club alone there is approx 15-20, 26cc boats in a mixture of FSR O + V but mainly O. They buy many relatively cheap, ready to run boats, of the internet which are of a good racing level. I know Prestwich Models sells many ready to race 26cc models, which given the starting of a new class COULD encourage them to start racing at Naviga and then internationally more. By opening a new class COULD encourage them and i believe it would. If there is A CHANCE of encouraging new competitors then i personally would be behind it. One class could then lead them to starting other classes once they find the social aspect they will never be able to leave... Regards, Leon www.lmracing.co.uk
alan whitaker		#27	[-]
Posts: 193 (09/14/08 11:27:31) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Hi Leon, I am sure with all these members you have the 26 cc classes in both offshore and V it will be a success, so it is first race next year for a 26 cc V class with your members and all the new boaters going to come into the class should be a success I will fully support this class if the numbers turn out. Leon wrote :*I apologise if this was not the case and shall be more obvious in future*. Leon There was nothing in your post to apologise for, not to me anyway, I am not against any new class I am asking where are they coming from and pointing out if clubs do not run the extra class they will have to be mixed in with the 35 cc, so where will the extra class be, back to square one. Alan
gbeg1		#28	[-]
Posts: 72 (09/14/08 11:55:27) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Does it matter where they come from? I think the least we can do is put it forward to encourage it. It they don't turn out and there is not enough for a seperate race then, the people who have always/still race with 26cc can run with 35cc. We have not lost any competitors, where is the problem, i see none. Why will you not encourage the class but you will support it once the numbers turn out? Regards, Leon www.lmracing.co.uk
Bart Drieghe		#29	[-]
Posts: 351 (09/14/08 23:40:01) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Lets put some facts back on , if Naviga approves the rule ( wich will be in 2010) , it'll be for the next WC wich is 2012 . Thats means qualifying in 2011 . If we give this rule a go , it'll have to get a chance to make some results too . My question is just , who will build a 26 cc boat in the meanwhile .............. . But , doing 26cc might just be the boost that this hobby needs . Btw , 26 cc only for seniors or for juniors too ? B
alan whitaker		#30	[-]
Posts: 194 (09/15/08 02:28:55) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Hi Bart Yes I see your point, and it makes sense the way you put it, I would go for both seniors and Junior given the choice , both 15 and 26 boats would be of similar size, if this is be a class to encourage new boaters would there be any restrictions or would it be fully free choice of engine, I ask this because there is a vast price difference at the moment, for example a RCMK in the UK costs £198 less pipe and a Zenoah for £375 inc tuning less pipe and a CMB costs £575 less pipe, quite a big jump, if there is a disc valve engine produced it could be the most expensive of all. To encourage people in how do you make it cheep to start and my question is if somebody has a less performance engine how do you make it so they have a chance to win, I think the CMB may be the engine of choice if you can afford it and a less powered Zenoah if you are on a tight budget, look at all the other classes it is CMB engines, not a knock at CMB they are just the best engines and are the winning engine of choice and that makes it a £1000 pound boat. Would you ban disc vale engines, would you ban tuned engines, to make it a real starter class, what would you allow to start it off?. Alan Last Edited By: alan whitaker 09/15/08 02:35:53. Edited 1 times.
w3bby		#31	[-]
Posts: 22 (09/15/08 02:59:14) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Alan For me I would prefer to see free tuning regardless of motor. We have now gone to it being a beginners class, I don't see this, I see it as a new class that could well attract more competitors. If the desire is a standard class then the only way forward is as they do here in Sweden with the O boats, O 26 Zenoah, Zenoahs only and no tuning allowed. This is currently the largest class. The new CMB has yet to prove itself and the tuned Zenoahs are running with QDs and the like in the US so I don't see that there is going to be a huge performance difference apart from standard motors. Motors are only part of the story, setup and driving also comes into play. People enter the class as they wish (as they already do in other classes) some with standard motors, others with the latest and greatest from the tuning masters and others with home cut engines. You then get a natural progression as people improve driving skills, improve speed, get the bug and up their investment. The advantage here is that bolt-on tuning is readily available for the Zenoahs, CY and similar engines. _____________ Ian Last Edited By: w3bby 09/15/08 10:08:31. Edited 1 times.
gbeg1		#32	[-]
Posts: 73 (09/15/08 08:28:02) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	w3bby wrote: We have now gone to it being a beginners class, I don't see this, I see it as a new class that could well attract more competetitors. I totally agree with Ian's post and especially the bit above. Regards, Leon www.lmracing.co.uk
Tore		#33	[-]
Posts: 2 (09/15/08 12:39:05) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	In Norway there has been a O-26Zenoah class for several years. It actually started as a O-23.9Zenoah class. But since the Zenoah 260 engine more or less has substituted the 230 engine we changed the definition to allow the 260 engine. The rules allow for tuning of the engine, but limited to the original parts. The intention of this class was to have a low cost, and easy to operate, recruit class into the RC Model boat racing. These engines are easy to start, easy to tune and reliable. The fuel cost and engine maintanance including spares are reasonably cheap. The size and weight of the boats are reasonable compared to the 35cc. This class has now become by far the biggest class in Norway. It has brought a lot of new people into the MB-racing. Despite the smaller cc than the 35cc, this class still has the speed, hence it has also intrigued the more experienced racers to enter this class. So in summary the introduction of the O-26Zenoah class has been a great success. As a possible Naviga class it would make sense not to limit to one manufacturer, but to only limit on engine size like in all other classes. As pointed out there are currently not many 26 boats. However, with all the advantages this class has, there will obviously be more boats if the class becomes ratified. So, go ahead guys! This will be a success! Tore
Bart Drieghe		#34	[-]
Posts: 352 (09/17/08 00:04:54) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	No Offense to anyone but guys , this aint a pissing contest . After some thinking , i'm sure that in O , the class will get people as many are running with their 26 cc boats already , i do question the V . Hydro , i know some dutch people are running it and i'm sure others are doing it now too so maybe you can get a full heat. Oh well , give it a go , it might be the thing we need to get more people running boats Btw, i didn't mean it a as a novice class (although i wrote "beginners" class) , i meant something like a "cheap" class to run boats . Compared to 15 , its 1/2 the price of a cmb91RS/etc unless you buy a top 26cc engine like QD, CMB and many more brands , its a servo less , cheaper fuel , no glowplugs .
Dave Marles		#35	[-]
Posts: 851 (09/17/08 00:45:43) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Bart Drieghe wrote: No Offense to anyone but guys , this aint a pissing contest . Bart , Well said..... Dave Tuning software
Andras		#36	[-]
Posts: 4 (09/17/08 04:23:37) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Hello people, the same question was also raised amongst Hungarian racers and I've always had my doubts. I will try to give a short list and hope to get answers from you: - From a financial point of view: Why would the 26 category stay cheap? The nature of motorsports is continuous evolution, so I don't see the point. We can all start to race 20 year-old Moki 90 engines in the 15 class and that's cheaper than 100 Euros, the only problem is that it doesn't bring the performance of a CMB 91, so nobody does it. If you bring in a 26 class, CMB or SG will make a high performance version, everyone will buy it to stay competitive and prices are unleashed. I guess the only way to keep it cheap is like the gokart guys do it e.g. with the Rotax Max class: all engines identical Rotaxes. - From the racers point of view: Why is it good to split classes instead of making them bigger and more competitive? Now we have 11 classes all together in V-H-O, 7 of them have junior versions as well, so that's already a lot. Maybe it's not the number of classes we should raise, rather the number of participants in each class. If 35 is already too big, too fast and too dangerous for this size of course, even too expensive for a normal budget racer, than maybe it would make sense to lower the class to 26. Of course people who run 35s now would kill me for this proposal, but it's just a theoretical question. Fact is that 10 years ago V-15 was the "king class", now we have two king classes with V-15 and V-35, so something has radically changed and I'm not sure it's good for our sport. - From the organizers point of view: How on earth should we put in 3 (or with juniors possibly 4 to 6) new 26 classes to an already too busy program? I think a new 26 class would definitely mean the split between O/H and V, simply because the world champs are already too long, even without this change. Cheers: Andras
BoBoKwok		#37	[-]
Posts: 704 (09/18/08 00:58:09) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Andras, your points are reasonable. I don't do and will not do 26cc so that I don't benefit from the new classes directly. Regardless of boat type, it is a fact that 26cc become popular all over the world. There are many V26's in China. None in HK There are even more O26 in China. Some in HK as well. I have seem many new boaters start boating on nitro but eventually give up. A part of them switch to gas boat. They like boating but they are not able to make their nitro going well. These kind of boaters mostly do boating for fun. It is very interesting that many of them do pretty well on Zenoah. At lease they are able to keep their boat going. They probably do not race at this moment but will race one day when they are able to. When this group of boater grow to a certain size, part of them remain for fun but part of them become serious boater. They will organize their own race then. Are we going to keep, to cultivate or to help these boaters by setting up a 26cc class in advance?(Many countries are doing it already) To be competitive doesn't mean to be the best. It means "above average". The best(fastest) always win? No. Why should we buy expensive tunning motor in order to be competitive? Regardless of nitro and gas. Model boating is never a cheap hobby However, after the basic expense we input on our equipment. $$$ is no longer the major factor to be competitive. It is our effort that make us competitive. Can the cheap Zenoah and CY be competitive in 26cc? Yes Starting with zenoah is cheaper and EASIER than the king class V15 as well as 35cc certainly. They will either input, quit or remain there for fun when they find they are not competitive. Can we let more people into boating by introducing 26cc first af all? Are we having probelm of too many boaters in any countries? It is true that we have too many classes already. When we have one more class in each category, splitting V with O & H completely seem like the only way to go.
Teslaboats		#38	[-]
Posts: 24 (09/18/08 05:14:10) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I would say that The 26cc engine class is by far the cheapest class of racing, even against 3.5cc with Zenoah engines available for £100 less than a CMB21. Both using 1.5 Lt fuel tanks, glow fuel also being more than 3 times the price of two stroke mix. In fact the only parts that cost more are the tuned pipe and racing hull because these are bigger. Offset by not needing a gearbox and mixture servos, float chamber etc. If 26cc is not competitive with 35cc then a new class may introduce more people into the SI classes. I just wish there were more races in the year for the SI classes. It is true that manufactures may come out with expensive 26cc engines but are they much better than a tuned Zenoah? There are many articles around on tuning Zenoah engines that most people should be able to build a competitive 26cc racing boat.
Fredde Cederberg		#39	[-]
Posts: 366 (09/24/08 15:25:15) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Andras is right, it is to many classes already, adding another one/3 would soke the rest. Go for 26 and skip the 35 or just leave it like it is. What's the problem Dave? Are the 35's to fast for you now?
Dave Marles		#40	[-]
Posts: 853 (09/24/08 22:11:52) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Fredde , All the boats are too fast for me but at least I can keep my fingers out of the props.. Too many classes is not a good reason to refuse to try what could be a very good competitive racing class. We would not have FSRO if we had said too many classses is not good in fact we would not have 7.5 because the same thing was said by some when the 7.5 (6.5) class was proposed. Dave Tuning software

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